Untouchable

Kumar 0:01
Cause all I heard thus far was I'm a Dalit, I'm subhuman. I'm an untouchable, I'm a dog and here this Book declares I am created in the image of the Almighty God and in his likeness.

Paul Robinson 0:15
Across the world today millions of Christians are persecuted. They face discrimination, imprisonment, displacement and even death simply because of their faith in Jesus Christ. These courageous believers are our brothers and sisters. We are in this together with them and we need to hear their voice. Join host Sarah as we discover their stories today on Release International's Voice Podcast.

Sarah 0:45
India is the largest democracy in the world and not necessarily the first place we would associate with persecution. But recently violent attacks against Christians and churches have been increasing. On today’s podcast I am joined by Pastor Kumar Swamy who works for Release International’s partner ministry in India. Kumar it's so, so lovely to have you with us today. Thank you for coming.

Kumar 1:11
Thank you.

Sarah 1:12
I understand that you work for Release's partner organisation, The All India Christian Council, which works to protect and serve the Christian community in India.

Kumar 1:21
Right.

Sarah 1:21
I want to talk more about that in a little bit, but first of all, could you just tell us who you are and a bit about your background, how you came to Christ?

Kumar 1:29
Yeah. I have not been a Christian all along my life. I actually come from my Hindu background and when I say Hindu , my cast is from Dalit background. Dalits - Untouchables, lower caste because in India we have a caste system. So my background is that I am from a Dalit background. My mother used to say we are Dalits, we are subhumans. That's what my mum used to say. Because that's what her mother was told and probably her mother and it goes on for a generation of 3000 years.

Sarah 2:17
So it's ingrained. If you're Dalit then you're subhuman.

Kumar 2:20
Absolutely. Right. You cannot easily get rid of it because as you said, it's ingrained.

Sarah 2:24
And what sort of impact did that have on you as a young boy?

Kumar 2:28
It occurred to me when I was around 11 years old - I was playing cricket with some of my friends and there was a boy who belonged to the upper caste . I accidently bumped into him, touched him as we were playing. He became very angry, very upset, and he yelled at me saying, 'You dirty Dalit dog'. So when I heard those derogatory terms, I was very upset. I had a cricket bat in my hand. I took him and hit him hard. He got hurt. He was bleeding. So within no time, nearly 40, 50 of his friends just descended from nowhere. And they all gathered and they held me guilty that I committed something - a big crime. Unpardonable sin as they called it. And they said I deserve a punishment. And they said, in the next 24 hours, we've got to pack our stuff and leave , locate to another village, just move. So that left a very big hole in my heart. And I started praying to all these millions of Hindu gods saying, 'Why did you create me as a Dalit, as a subhuman , as a dog?'. No answer from millions of these Hindu gods.

Sarah 3:56
That's such an agonising prayer.

Kumar 3:57
It was an agonising, desperate prayer, asking god to save me from this wretched state of being untouchable. But my prayers were not heard. My cries were not heard. Went unheard. So I, I was a very depressed, discouraged, disheartened young man, as young as 11 years old, almost contemplating committing suicide. I want to kill myself. I didn't want to live with this tag of untouchable subhuman . So this was my childhood life. Bitter memories as I think of now. Even in schools, I remember many times I was asked to stand outside the class because we Dalits are not supposed to be entitled for education as the holy Hindu book says . So that was my childhood memories , which is still a bitter memory for me, even when I t hink n ow.

Sarah 4:56
It's terrible to hear that.

Kumar 4:57
It is. It is. Yeah.

Sarah 4:59
But the gospel must've made such an impact to hear about what God actually says about you.

Kumar 5:05
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. The gospel made a huge impact in my life. I remember one day, my elder brother - I have one elder brother - he came home one evening with a big beaming smile on his face and he came and declared saying, 'Kumar, all our suffering, our agony as Dalit , it's all over' he said. I said, 'How is it possible . What happened?' My brother told me he accepted Jesus Christ. He became a follower of Christ. I said , 'Jesus, who?' I never heard that name before.

Sarah 5:44
You'd never heard of Jesus or Christianity?

Kumar 5:46
No, because we were brought up in a little village interior village. We did not have an opportunity to hear the name of Jesus. And they prayed for him and blessed him with a big black book and he brought the book home and he had this and opened it to the first page of the book and pointed out an amazing statement there. It says that I'm created in the image of the Almighty God. I said , wow, I never heard this message in all of my life.

Sarah 6:21
It's the first time you read those words.

Kumar 6:22
Exactly because all I heard thus far was, I'm a Dalit. I'm a subhuman. I'm an untouchable. I'm a dog and here this book declares I am created in the image of the Almighty God and in his likeness. I almost held my brother's collar and I said, 'I need this God now' and my brother led me to Jesus Christ. And what a day that was. What a privilege it was for me to know the Creator in whose image I am created and here I am as a child of God. And this is what the Dalits in India long to hear today. That is the gospel for them just to know that they are created in the image of God .

Sarah 7:08
So the harvest is plentiful.

Kumar 7:10
Absolutely. Absolutely. What Christ has said is true, but the labourers are also few . So that's a prayer request for India.

Sarah 7:23
Today I’m talking to Release partner Kumar Swamy. After being brought up to think of himself as an ‘untouchable’ Dalit, he came to understand that he was a loved and valued child of God. Millions of others from India’s lower castes have come to the same understanding. But for some radical Hindus this cuts against the grain and proposals are being advanced to legally curtail freedom of religion…. So on the topic of persecution - it's not something that people in the UK necessarily associate with India. Lots of people here have been on holiday there . They don't think about Christians suffering for their faith. It's a , the largest democracy in the world. But in the last 10 years we've been hearing about the rise of Hindu nationalism. Could you just tell us a little bit about the background to that and what's caused that and why Christians in particular are being targeted?

Kumar 8:24
Yeah, I think the last few years, couple of decades or so I'm conscious of the fact that the Hindu nationalism is on the rise. Atrocities has been unleashed against the church of Jesus Christ as never before.

Sarah 8:43
And is this happening all over India or just concentrated areas?

Kumar 8:48
It's happening all over India.

Sarah 8:50
And who's orchestrating these attacks? Is it happening at family level or national level, both?

Kumar 8:58
I will say both. You go to a little remote village of our country , individual families are attacked, harassed, ostracised. So it's a daily happening for Christians in the villages and even in national level also, we believe there is a well organised systematic strategy to come against the Christian community in the country.

Sarah 9:25
In May this year we've been hearing about the elections that have taken place in India, and I think I'm right in saying that it came as a real shock to people that the BJP were reelected. What impact do you think Prime Minister Modi and the BJP party will have on Christians? Do you think it will trigger a new wave of nationalism and anti-Christian sentiment?

Kumar 9:50
Right, right. , yes. The Christian community on the whole has been definitely disappointed because the BJP has been reelected. We were even praying that their party will not come back to power. But it looks like God has allowed it. God has permitted it . That's how we Christians have accepted it in our country. But we believe that God is in control and God knows what he's doing. So we have kind of submitted to his will. But there is a major concern as a Christian community that atrocities and persecution will be doubling this time from when they come back to power. It could be even triple.

Sarah 10:37
Triple?

Kumar 10:37
Yeah

Sarah 10:40
And I understand that the all India Christian Council, the AICC, are trying to set up a meet meeting with Modi at the moment.

Kumar 10:49
Sure. Thank you. It's a major prayer request again for India. All India Christian Council, under our banner we would like to just take a representation of Christian leaders across the country and have an audience with him. First of all,we want to assure him that we as Christians in the country in India are with him. We are not against him. We are going to pray for him. We will stand in solidarity with him as he rules and reigns the country but we'll also enlighten him about the atrocities of his government previously. And we will seek the protection, the safety and the security of the Christian community he has to ensure.

Sarah 11:36
Kumar, what is the all India Christian Council doing to help Christians in these sort of situations?

Kumar 11:44
So our commitment as All India Christian Coundil, number one, is to help to strengthen the Christians, to empower them, educate them and to just help them to keep going on for Jesus. We do it by conferences, especially for pastors, they are the leaders of the church, right? And they need to be strong, firm, based on the Word of God. So we get them together on a regular basis - once in two or three months - we conduct pastors conferences. That is one area where the AICC is helping. And the second area the AICC helps the Christians in India is persecuted Christians, especially in the legal matters because once the case is filed, once that attack takes place, it becomes a police case and then it's forwarded to court. So it becomes a ongoing long legal battle. And the third area we help Christians, the persecuted Christians in India , under AICC banner is to help them by supplying the Word of God. These are some of the areas where the AICC is helping. We recently requested Release International to stand with us to help the persecuted Christians medically as well. Some of these pastors who are attacked, they have broken hands and broken legs, you know, major surgery is required sometimes because of the attacks, severe attacks. So we requested Release to help us medically. And that's another area AICC is helping.

Sarah 13:32
The AICC is an interdenominational organisation and you were speaking about a pastors conference. Is that pastors from all different kinds of churches?

Kumar 13:44
Yes.

Sarah 13:44
My question then is, is the church uniting under persecution? Are you seeing the church grow as a result or is it fracturing and dividing?

Kumar 13:56
Great question. The answer is an empathetic yes. The church of Jesus Christ in India is united now in the midst of persecution, in the midst of attacks it looks like this is God's plan and design for the church in India to grow and be united. So in a way, indirectly , thanks to the persecution , which is uniting the churc, all the members of AICC, these 4,000 plus churches, they're all from different denominations, various church attacks, but the prosecution has brought us together. We are united.

Sarah 14:36
Praise God.

Kumar 14:36
Yes. We want to stay together. Stay strong. So persecution is helping us to do that in a way. In the days to come we will make sure that we stay as a body united. We request you to continue to pray for us that we'll be united and stay strong.

Sarah 14:57
We would love to pray that you are united as a church and the various other things you mentioned, praying for a hearing with Prime Minister Modi, praying for the Dalit community who are hungry for the gospel. As well as praying for you, we would love to learn from you as well. And I'm sure our brothers and sisters in India could teach us a lot about what it is to follow God under such circumstances. Could you tell us something that might encourage us or inspire us or challenge us about what God teaches you in their midst of real suffering?

Kumar 15:34
Yeah . Thank you for asking that. I am just kind of sharing as I went to these churches, what the Lord is teaching us as Indian Christians. I said that even the Lord personally spoke to me also in the midst of all this discouragement that the BJP came back to power and the discouragement that the acceleration of attacks is going to double. It's going to triple. To a certain extent I was bit discouraged with all this news, but the Lord kept encouraging me. The Lord reminded me that he's on the throne. It is he who rules and reigns the nations of the earth.

Sarah 16:16
Mmm. He reigns over India.

Kumar 16:16
Right. Including India. And that's what the Lord reminded me through his Word. So I was greatly encouraged. The Lord also reminded me that the Church of Jesus Christ, of which you and I are a part of globally, is the only hope of this world. So we need to strengthen the Church, stand with the Church, bless the Church because it is He who is building His Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church.

Sarah 16:49
Amen. Amen. That's an amazing note to end on. Kumar , thank you so much for being with us.

Kumar 16:57
Thank you

Sarah 16:59
Life in India is not quite what we might have expected. An unjust caste system, anti-conversion laws, proposed changes to the constitution to deny religious freedom. But all over India today the Gospel is announcing true freedom. Everyone is made in the image of God. Jesus died to save people from every tribe, nation and language. And wherever the Gospel announces this freedom we shouldn’t be surprised to see opposition. This is what our Christian brothers and sisters in India are experiencing. We praise God that his church is united and growing but let’s also make sure that we stand in solidarity with those who suffer to carry the Good News. Thank you so much for listening to Release International’s Voice podcast. Please do subscribe through your favourite podcast app and stay connected to the voice of persecuted Christians. There are many other ways you can get involved. For more information about how you can support persecuted believers across the world please visit our website www.releaseinternational.org or find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.”

Music 18:05
[inaudible] .

Paul Robinson 18:06
Remember those who are in prison as if you were in there together with them and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering. Do not abandon them.